Pay by phone users

[Jim the Geordie]

I have used Google Pay for some time now without major problems,
although my card is more likely to be accepted first time, but I don't
always have my card.
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.
I have never tried Samsung Pay. Is it different/better/just the same?

If you have used neither then don't reply, and I don't need a lecture on
the demise of cash.

[Simon]

Post by Jim the Geordie
I have used Google Pay for some time now without major problems,
although my card is more likely to be accepted first time, but I don't
always have my card.
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.
I have never tried Samsung Pay. Is it different/better/just the same?
If you have used neither then don't reply, and I don't need a lecture on
the demise of cash.

No issues with Google pay, I don't spend enough to need the fingerprint, maybe
the retailer can opt to force that too, if people can't wait for you to touch
the fingerprint scanner imagine their disgust if you started counting out coins!
:-)

Samsung pay is the same idea, but I found Google 100% reliable with paying
whereas Samsung was failing about 10% of the time for no reason.

Of course, all that said YMMV

[me9]

Post by Simon

Post by Jim the Geordie
I have used Google Pay for some time now without major problems,
although my card is more likely to be accepted first time, but I don't
always have my card. Recently my phone has often been rejected until I
use my fingerprint or passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing,
can cause 'tutting' in the queue behind me. I have never tried Samsung
Pay. Is it different/better/just the same?
If you have used neither then don't reply, and I don't need a lecture on
the demise of cash.

No issues with Google pay, I don't spend enough to need the fingerprint,
maybe the retailer can opt to force that too, if people can't wait for you
to touch the fingerprint scanner imagine their disgust if you started
counting out coins! :-)
Samsung pay is the same idea, but I found Google 100% reliable with paying
whereas Samsung was failing about 10% of the time for no reason.
Of course, all that said YMMV

It all fails when the flattery goes bat! Cards still jbex.

[Simon]

Post by me9

Post by Simon

Post by Jim the Geordie
I have used Google Pay for some time now without major problems,
although my card is more likely to be accepted first time, but I don't
always have my card. Recently my phone has often been rejected until I
use my fingerprint or passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing,
can cause 'tutting' in the queue behind me. I have never tried Samsung
Pay. Is it different/better/just the same?
If you have used neither then don't reply, and I don't need a lecture on
the demise of cash.

No issues with Google pay, I don't spend enough to need the fingerprint,
maybe the retailer can opt to force that too, if people can't wait for you
to touch the fingerprint scanner imagine their disgust if you started
counting out coins! :-)
Samsung pay is the same idea, but I found Google 100% reliable with paying
whereas Samsung was failing about 10% of the time for no reason.
Of course, all that said YMMV

It all fails when the flattery goes bat! Cards still jbex.

I never do that much shopping! :-)

[Tease'n'Seize]

Post by Jim the Geordie
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.

IME, you *have* to unlock (by fingieprint, pin, squiggle, face etc)
before attempting to pay-by-bonk

[John Williamson]

Post by Tease'n'Seize

Post by Jim the Geordie
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.

IME, you *have* to unlock (by fingieprint, pin, squiggle, face etc)
before attempting to pay-by-bonk

Is the right answer. I use the Barclays app, and need the phone PIN or
other ID to wake that up, then a different PIN to wake the app up. Then
enter the PIN again to confirm the transaction.

[Simon]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Tease'n'Seize

Post by Jim the Geordie
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.

IME, you *have* to unlock (by fingieprint, pin, squiggle, face etc)
before attempting to pay-by-bonk

Is the right answer. I use the Barclays app, and need the phone PIN or
other ID to wake that up, then a different PIN to wake the app up. Then
enter the PIN again to confirm the transaction.

It is easier here in Spain, unlock phone, wave over reader, get receipt and
leave.

[Simon]

Post by Tease'n'Seize

Post by Jim the Geordie
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.

IME, you *have* to unlock (by fingieprint, pin, squiggle, face etc)
before attempting to pay-by-bonk

I do recall having issues in Tesco where the app would require authorisation
which for me was another fingerprint. That was a few years ago though so things
may have changed in the UK.

[John Williamson]

Post by Jim the Geordie
I have used Google Pay for some time now without major problems,
although my card is more likely to be accepted first time, but I don't
always have my card.
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.
I have never tried Samsung Pay. Is it different/better/just the same?
If you have used neither then don't reply, and I don't need a lecture on
the demise of cash.

I don't use NFC or "Scan the code on the display" to pay by phone due to
security and reliability concerns. This was reinforced yesterday when it
took a shopper over ten minutes and many attempts to use their phone to
pay for their shopping yesterday. Not the first time it's happened to me.

Because I shifted to another queueueue,I never did find out whether it
was a shop system promble or a phone promble. She did seem spend a lot
of time typing in a PIN, and it took two managers and the experienced
till operator many attempts to even get a beep to say the bar code on
the phone screen was valid. When I moved into the other queue,I then got
stuck behind a sweet little old lady who insisted on finding the correct
change in her very capacious purse... Aaarrrrghh!!!

My contactless card goes through first time every time unless the system
decides I've not used the PIN and chip system for long enough to be
worrying, or I use the contactless function in the shop, then try to use
it to buy petrol in the filling station. It is also quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.
And if you tell the bank you have lost the card, the phone stops
working, at least if you use the Barclays app...

Very few banks let you use your phone to draw cash out of an ATM, too.
It doesn't fit into the slot....

[Peter]

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got it but
soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

I've been visiting the district hospital twice daily (SWMBO had an op,
recovering well). Paying for the fish boat was easy with the debit card but,
watching other people struggle, looked like a nightmare with their phones.

[Simon]

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got it but
soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.
I've been visiting the district hospital twice daily (SWMBO had an op,
recovering well). Paying for the fish boat was easy with the debit card but,
watching other people struggle, looked like a nightmare with their phones.

I had that experience with my old phone but the new one and Google wallet have
worked so well I don't even take my card with me any more. One less thing to
carry and worry about. :-)

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 09:00:47 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got it
but soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

I had much the same experience when I tried phone payment and went
back to using my card. I usually use my Revolut card for spending because I
get a text when I'm nearing the contactless limit and can reset it in a
couple of taps and a fingerprint.

I do sometimes use my phone for horriblemarket loyalty cards because
the vouchers are in there TAAAW.

Post by Peter
I've been visiting the district hospital twice daily (SWMBO had an op,
recovering well). Paying for the fish boat was easy with the debit card
but, watching other people struggle, looked like a nightmare with their
phones.

The motorway toll booths here take contactless payment - I'd hate
to try using a phone on them.

[Sn!pe]

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got it but
soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

Apple Pay with Apple Watch is by far the easiest payment method
I have ever used. Double-press on the watch side button to bring up
choice of card. If not your default choice, rotate crown to select card
then just wave your wrist at the NFC card reader for (funds permitting)
very prompt completion.

<tempting fate>
As yet, I don't think I've had one failure to complete a transaction.
</tf>

[Simon]

Post by Sn!pe

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got it but
soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

Apple Pay with Apple Watch is by far the easiest payment method
I have ever used. Double-press on the watch side button to bring up
choice of card. If not your default choice, rotate crown to select card
then just wave your wrist at the NFC card reader for (funds permitting)
very prompt completion.
<tempting fate>
As yet, I don't think I've had one failure to complete a transaction.
</tf>

The watch alone would not work though would it? It needs an iphone to connect
to?

[Sn!pe]

Post by Simon

Post by Sn!pe

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got
it but soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

Apple Pay with Apple Watch is by far the easiest payment method
I have ever used. Double-press on the watch side button to bring up
choice of card. If not your default choice, rotate crown to select card
then just wave your wrist at the NFC card reader for (funds permitting)
very prompt completion.
<tempting fate>
As yet, I don't think I've had one failure to complete a transaction.
</tf>

The watch alone would not work though would it?
It needs an iphone to connect to?

The watch is an extension to the phone, more or less a terminal to it,
but with a great deal of functionality of its own. I haven't so far
tried to use the watch alone to pay (in the absence of the phone);
I'll try that experiment sometime. Usually I would always have my
phone with me but not necessarily easily accessible.

[Simon]

Post by Sn!pe

Post by Simon

Post by Sn!pe

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got
it but soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

Apple Pay with Apple Watch is by far the easiest payment method
I have ever used. Double-press on the watch side button to bring up
choice of card. If not your default choice, rotate crown to select card
then just wave your wrist at the NFC card reader for (funds permitting)
very prompt completion.
<tempting fate>
As yet, I don't think I've had one failure to complete a transaction.
</tf>

The watch alone would not work though would it?
It needs an iphone to connect to?

The watch is an extension to the phone, more or less a terminal to it,
but with a great deal of functionality of its own. I haven't so far
tried to use the watch alone to pay (in the absence of the phone);
I'll try that experiment sometime. Usually I would always have my
phone with me but not necessarily easily accessible.

I could not deal with an iphone, it is hard enough with google but at least
there I have some control over what is going on. I used to build ROMs for
Android so I know what I can get away with and still get the banking apps to
work.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Sn!pe

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got it but
soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

Apple Pay with Apple Watch is by far the easiest payment method
I have ever used. Double-press on the watch side button to bring up
choice of card. If not your default choice, rotate crown to select card
then just wave your wrist at the NFC card reader for (funds permitting)
very prompt completion.
<tempting fate>
As yet, I don't think I've had one failure to complete a transaction.
</tf>

I finally gave in & set up Apple pay (but no Apple watch on my wrist).
I reluctantly admit that it has worked without a single problem each and
every time I've used it.
The facial recognition system seem to recognise me without any
difficulty, & isn't phased by me wearing (or not wearing) glasses, hats etc.

[Simon]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Sn!pe

Post by Peter

My contactless card is quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.

Yep, that's my experience. I used my phone as a card when I first got it but
soon realised that my card was ealier to use than the phone.

Apple Pay with Apple Watch is by far the easiest payment method
I have ever used. Double-press on the watch side button to bring up
choice of card. If not your default choice, rotate crown to select card
then just wave your wrist at the NFC card reader for (funds permitting)
very prompt completion.
<tempting fate>
As yet, I don't think I've had one failure to complete a transaction.
</tf>

I finally gave in & set up Apple pay (but no Apple watch on my wrist).
I reluctantly admit that it has worked without a single problem each and
every time I've used it.
The facial recognition system seem to recognise me without any
difficulty, & isn't phased by me wearing (or not wearing) glasses, hats etc.

Things have really improved with the facial recognition recently, it wasn't long
ago that a change of hairstyle would stop it, now, as you say, it is really
good. The trouble is, what are Apple and Google doing with our face data?

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Simon
Things have really improved with the facial recognition recently, it wasn't long
ago that a change of hairstyle would stop it, now, as you say, it is really
good. The trouble is, what are Apple and Google doing with our face data?

and your fingerprints

[Simon]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon
Things have really improved with the facial recognition recently, it wasn't long
ago that a change of hairstyle would stop it, now, as you say, it is really
good. The trouble is, what are Apple and Google doing with our face data?

and your fingerprints

That is also true, I can't even imagine what the value is but there must be
some.

[Sn!pe]

Post by Simon

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon
Things have really improved with the facial recognition recently, it
wasn't long ago that a change of hairstyle would stop it, now, as you
say, it is really good. The trouble is, what are Apple and Google doing
with our face data?

and your fingerprints

That is also true, I can't even imagine what the value is but there must be
some.

While there may be other motives, at least one is the convenience
of superior face recognition helping to justify the premium price of
Apple products.

[Richard Robinson]

Post by Simon

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon
Things have really improved with the facial recognition recently, it
wasn't long ago that a change of hairstyle would stop it, now, as
you say, it is really good. The trouble is, what are Apple and
Google doing with our face data?

and your fingerprints

That is also true, I can't even imagine what the value is but there
must be some.

How much does it costs them to store that stuff, per person ?

[Simon]

Post by Richard Robinson

Post by Simon

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon
Things have really improved with the facial recognition recently, it
wasn't long ago that a change of hairstyle would stop it, now, as
you say, it is really good. The trouble is, what are Apple and
Google doing with our face data?

and your fingerprints

That is also true, I can't even imagine what the value is but there
must be some.

How much does it costs them to store that stuff, per person ?

Given how much time and effort companies spend getting personal information I
imagine the storage cost is minimal in the scheme of things.

[Richard Robinson]

Post by Simon

Post by Richard Robinson

Post by Simon

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon
Things have really improved with the facial recognition recently, it
wasn't long ago that a change of hairstyle would stop it, now, as
you say, it is really good. The trouble is, what are Apple and
Google doing with our face data?

and your fingerprints

That is also true, I can't even imagine what the value is but there
must be some.

How much does it costs them to store that stuff, per person ?

Given how much time and effort companies spend getting personal information I
imagine the storage cost is minimal in the scheme of things.

That's what I was guessing. So, might as well store anything you can
hoover up, in case someone might find a value for it later ?

[Nicholas D. Richards]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Jim the Geordie
I have used Google Pay for some time now without major problems,
although my card is more likely to be accepted first time, but I don't
always have my card.
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.
I have never tried Samsung Pay. Is it different/better/just the same?
If you have used neither then don't reply, and I don't need a lecture on
the demise of cash.

I don't use NFC or "Scan the code on the display" to pay by phone due to
security and reliability concerns. This was reinforced yesterday when it
took a shopper over ten minutes and many attempts to use their phone to
pay for their shopping yesterday. Not the first time it's happened to me.
Because I shifted to another queueueue,I never did find out whether it
was a shop system promble or a phone promble. She did seem spend a lot
of time typing in a PIN, and it took two managers and the experienced
till operator many attempts to even get a beep to say the bar code on
the phone screen was valid. When I moved into the other queue,I then got
stuck behind a sweet little old lady who insisted on finding the correct
change in her very capacious purse... Aaarrrrghh!!!
My contactless card goes through first time every time unless the system
decides I've not used the PIN and chip system for long enough to be
worrying, or I use the contactless function in the shop, then try to use
it to buy petrol in the filling station. It is also quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.
And if you tell the bank you have lost the card, the phone stops
working, at least if you use the Barclays app...
Very few banks let you use your phone to draw cash out of an ATM, too.
It doesn't fit into the slot....

Even quicker to pay by cash. You do not even have to remember a PIN
number or find another card that does work.

I wish that horriblemarkets would have Cash Only tills. Then you do not
have to wait while the technology and or memory of the buyers in front
kicks in.

Recently in Sainsburys cash buyers could pay, if it were not for the
technology buyers who blocked the queue because they could not.

[John Williamson]

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by John Williamson
My contactless card goes through first time every time unless the system
decides I've not used the PIN and chip system for long enough to be
worrying, or I use the contactless function in the shop, then try to use
it to buy petrol in the filling station. It is also quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.
And if you tell the bank you have lost the card, the phone stops
working, at least if you use the Barclays app...

Even quicker to pay by cash. You do not even have to remember a PIN
number or find another card that does work.

It is,though, annoying how long it takes most cash users to count it
before handing it over, then the till operator has to count it again,
then count the change, which the recipient also counts before putting it
into their purse or wherever they keep their money. I have no trouble
remembering the 4 digit PIN (if I need to use it), so I've paid and gone
more quickly than the first step of paying by cash.

Post by Nicholas D. Richards
I wish that horriblemarkets would have Cash Only tills. Then you do not
have to wait while the technology and or memory of the buyers in front
kicks in.

While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Post by Nicholas D. Richards
Recently in Sainsburys cash buyers could pay, if it were not for the
technology buyers who blocked the queue because they could not.

And there were card users behind you in the queue getting irritated at
the ritual of you getting the money out, counting it, handing it over
and all the other palaver that goes with paying by cash.

[Simon]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by John Williamson
My contactless card goes through first time every time unless the system
decides I've not used the PIN and chip system for long enough to be
worrying, or I use the contactless function in the shop, then try to use
it to buy petrol in the filling station. It is also quicker and easier
to use, as all I need to do is grab my wallet, extract the card and
present it, as against extracting the phone, waking the app up (Needs
two PINs, one for the phone and one for the app), persuading the phone
to admit that I am who I say I am, then much finger tapping and another
PIN to get it to agree I have the right to pay that amount to the shop.
And if you tell the bank you have lost the card, the phone stops
working, at least if you use the Barclays app...

Even quicker to pay by cash. You do not even have to remember a PIN
number or find another card that does work.

It is,though, annoying how long it takes most cash users to count it
before handing it over, then the till operator has to count it again,
then count the change, which the recipient also counts before putting it
into their purse or wherever they keep their money. I have no trouble
remembering the 4 digit PIN (if I need to use it), so I've paid and gone
more quickly than the first step of paying by cash.

Post by Nicholas D. Richards
I wish that horriblemarkets would have Cash Only tills. Then you do not
have to wait while the technology and or memory of the buyers in front
kicks in.

While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Post by Nicholas D. Richards
Recently in Sainsburys cash buyers could pay, if it were not for the
technology buyers who blocked the queue because they could not.

And there were card users behind you in the queue getting irritated at
the ritual of you getting the money out, counting it, handing it over
and all the other palaver that goes with paying by cash.

If possible I do the self checkout, pay with phone and done.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

[Simon]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

speaking of which ...


the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in the
queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him - he was
holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been around 6
feet from the terminal

[Nicholas D. Richards]

In article <v0g8f7$3mqs6$***@dont-email.me>, Abandoned Trolley <***@fred-
smith.co.uk> on Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 13:59:20 awoke Nicholas from his

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

speaking of which ...
the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in the
queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him - he was
holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been around 6
feet from the terminal

My wife uses her cards ALL the time and we spend hours each month
checking out her statement. We have discovered payments that we cannot
identify.

I stopped using any cards outside the house because it became impossible
to control my budget. Now I cannot buy unless I have the cash in my
pocket, meaning that there is an element of pre-planning in my spending.

Check out my changed signature block for the purposes of this thread.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 14:10:19 +0100

Post by Nicholas D. Richards
smith.co.uk> on Fri, 26 Apr 2024 at 13:59:20 awoke Nicholas from his

Post by Abandoned Trolley
the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in the
queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him - he was
holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been around 6
feet from the terminal

Strange I have to put my card very close to the terminal for it to
recognise that there's a card there - this applies to every terminal I've
used.

Post by Nicholas D. Richards
My wife uses her cards ALL the time and we spend hours each month
checking out her statement. We have discovered payments that we cannot
identify.

I have never had a payment I can't identify despite using my card
all the time in shops and online. I must be doing something right, perhaps
it's the RFID blocking wallet.

For the card I use most often I get a text every time there's a
payment out of the account so I'd notice very quickly if there was an
unexpected payment.

[Simon]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

speaking of which ...
the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in the
queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him - he was
holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been around 6
feet from the terminal

Haha, I am surprised they noticed, I bet that happens more than you think.

[Tim+]

Post by Simon

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if possible, as we
can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

speaking of which ...
the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in the
queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him - he was
holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been around 6
feet from the terminal

Haha, I am surprised they noticed, I bet that happens more than you think.

Hmm, not sure I believe it. 6 feet is way beyond the supposed range of RFID
systems used for payment.

Tim

[Peter]

Post by Tim+

Post by Simon

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if
possible, as we can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

speaking of which ...
the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in
the queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him
- he was holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been
around 6 feet from the terminal

Haha, I am surprised they noticed, I bet that happens more than you think.

Hmm, not sure I believe it. 6 feet is way beyond the supposed range of
RFID systems used for payment.
Tim

Yes, I was surprised to hear that. RFIDs on payment cards use the NFID
system which, IIRC, is effective only over a few mm. The limitting factor
is getting power to the chip - it has to be by induction which requires
either dangerously large currents or very close range.

[John Williamson]

Post by Peter

Post by Tim+

Post by Simon

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if
possible, as we can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

speaking of which ...
the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in
the queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him
- he was holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been
around 6 feet from the terminal

Haha, I am surprised they noticed, I bet that happens more than you think.

Hmm, not sure I believe it. 6 feet is way beyond the supposed range of
RFID systems used for payment.
Tim

Yes, I was surprised to hear that. RFIDs on payment cards use the NFID
system which, IIRC, is effective only over a few mm. The limitting factor
is getting power to the chip - it has to be by induction which requires
either dangerously large currents or very close range.

The long distance thing could,in theory, happen with a phone, as it
draws the power to transmit the data from the phone battery.

With a large enough transmitter and sensitive receiver, you can extend
the card range to a few inches, The power required at both ends
increases by the square of the distance.

[c***@privacy.net]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Peter

Post by Tim+

Post by Simon

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:16:38 +0100

Post by John Williamson
While those of us using cards use the card only tills if
possible, as we can pay in half the time with a lot less effort.

Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

speaking of which  ...
the first time I went to make a contactless payment, the bloke in
the queue in front of me paid the bill of the woman in front of him
- he was holding the payment card in his hand, but it must have been
around 6 feet from the terminal

Haha, I am surprised they noticed, I bet that happens more than you think.

Hmm, not sure I believe it. 6 feet is way beyond the supposed range of
RFID systems used for payment.
Tim

Yes, I was surprised to hear that. RFIDs on payment cards use the NFID
system which, IIRC, is effective only over a few mm. The limitting factor
is getting power to the chip - it has to be by induction which requires
either dangerously large currents or very close range.

The long distance thing could,in theory, happen with a phone, as it
draws the power to transmit the data from the phone battery.
With a large enough transmitter and sensitive receiver, you can extend
the card range to a few inches,

It was not always so. The range has been reduced from feet to inches/mm
because of security 'issues'. Some years ago a relative ran a retail
business at a time when nokia phones had a card reader app, as a matter
of course, and contactless cards were the next best thing. When asked
by customers why they did not take contactless, they would produce their
phone, start the app and show them the customers details on screen...

I bet there are more than a few of those readers still about!

Chris

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 12:26:51 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

Troo, but I got one of those some time back last time my wallet
wore out.

[Simon]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 26 Apr 2024 12:26:51 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Simon

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Yep contactless card payment is the fastest and easiest method.

but you have to have RFID blocking wallet to keep in :-(

Troo, but I got one of those some time back last time my wallet
wore out.

I got one after watching a video of someone scanning people in the street,
tested it and it failed, paid at the store while still in the wallet. The
current one works but I really do not need the physical card now, the phone
works without issue and by using google does not expose the real card details to
the retailer.

[Brian-Gaff (bed 2)]

Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need privately
these days in a safe environment. Brian
--
From the Bed of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)

Post by Jim the Geordie
I have used Google Pay for some time now without major problems,
although my card is more likely to be accepted first time, but I don't
always have my card.
Recently my phone has often been rejected until I use my fingerprint or
passcode, which although, not exactly embarrasing, can cause 'tutting'
in the queue behind me.
I have never tried Samsung Pay. Is it different/better/just the same?
If you have used neither then don't reply, and I don't need a lecture on
the demise of cash.
--
Jim the Geordie

[D]

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need privately
these days in a safe environment. Brian

This is true! Most people nowadays have their ID, bank, money, wallet and
god knows what in one and the same device. If someone manages to steal it
and break into it, they control the entire life of that person.

I prefer decentralized security so I have a phone that can make phone
calls and is so "dumb" that I can leave it on a cafe table and no one will
touch it.

I have a credit card in my wallet.

I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.

So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

[Simon]

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need privately
these days in a safe environment. Brian

This is true! Most people nowadays have their ID, bank, money, wallet and
god knows what in one and the same device. If someone manages to steal it
and break into it, they control the entire life of that person.
I prefer decentralized security so I have a phone that can make phone
calls and is so "dumb" that I can leave it on a cafe table and no one will
touch it.
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

My phone has a lock, all my apps need a code, I don't go anywhere with my phone
waving about in my hand, if I need to look something up I will find somewhere
and do it keeping an eye on what is going on.

[D]

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need privately
these days in a safe environment. Brian

This is true! Most people nowadays have their ID, bank, money, wallet and
god knows what in one and the same device. If someone manages to steal it
and break into it, they control the entire life of that person.
I prefer decentralized security so I have a phone that can make phone
calls and is so "dumb" that I can leave it on a cafe table and no one will
touch it.
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

My phone has a lock, all my apps need a code, I don't go anywhere with my phone
waving about in my hand, if I need to look something up I will find somewhere
and do it keeping an eye on what is going on.

That is good! I am however convinced, that government level actors have
good ways of breaking those locks. Non-government actor have a metal pipe
to beat the code out of you. ;)

Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook, a bit
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

[Simon]

Post by D

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need privately
these days in a safe environment. Brian

This is true! Most people nowadays have their ID, bank, money, wallet and
god knows what in one and the same device. If someone manages to steal it
and break into it, they control the entire life of that person.
I prefer decentralized security so I have a phone that can make phone
calls and is so "dumb" that I can leave it on a cafe table and no one will
touch it.
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

My phone has a lock, all my apps need a code, I don't go anywhere with my phone
waving about in my hand, if I need to look something up I will find somewhere
and do it keeping an eye on what is going on.

That is good! I am however convinced, that government level actors have
good ways of breaking those locks. Non-government actor have a metal pipe
to beat the code out of you. ;)

Surely though the same pipe would extract your pin to go with your card, if they
are that serious they will get what they want.

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook, a bit
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

[Nicholas D. Richards]

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)

Post by D

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need

privately

Post by D

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
these days in a safe environment. Brian

This is true! Most people nowadays have their ID, bank, money, wallet and
god knows what in one and the same device. If someone manages to steal it
and break into it, they control the entire life of that person.
I prefer decentralized security so I have a phone that can make phone
calls and is so "dumb" that I can leave it on a cafe table and no one will
touch it.
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

My phone has a lock, all my apps need a code, I don't go anywhere with my

phone

Post by D

Post by Simon
waving about in my hand, if I need to look something up I will find somewhere
and do it keeping an eye on what is going on.

That is good! I am however convinced, that government level actors have
good ways of breaking those locks. Non-government actor have a metal pipe
to beat the code out of you. ;)

Surely though the same pipe would extract your pin to go with your card, if they
are that serious they will get what they want.

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook, a bit
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

(The Perm) may have a misplaced sense of entitlement.

Being impecunious does not protect one from such treatment, in fact
there is a relationship between impecuniousness and chances of detection
which is not in the poor victim's favour.

Take over a millionaire Prime Minister's finances and you will be
detected; take over a little old pensioner's finances and you have a
chance of getting away with it.

[John Williamson]

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook, a bit
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint readers
now require the finger to still be attached.

[Simon]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook,

a bit

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint readers
now require the finger to still be attached.

Are you suggesting that the TV shows, CSI etc. have been lying to us and you
can't use a finger many days later to obtain a print? Shocking! :-)

[The Nomad]

Post by Simon

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook,

a bit

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with
more assets than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint readers
now require the finger to still be attached.

Are you suggesting that the TV shows, CSI etc. have been lying to us and
you can't use a finger many days later to obtain a print? Shocking! :-)

You can get a print for IDing a Jane/John Doe porpoises but likely not
good enough for a 'phone ID

Avpx

[Simon]

Post by The Nomad

Post by Simon

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook,

a bit

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with
more assets than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint readers
now require the finger to still be attached.

Are you suggesting that the TV shows, CSI etc. have been lying to us and
you can't use a finger many days later to obtain a print? Shocking! :-)

You can get a print for IDing a Jane/John Doe porpoises but likely not
good enough for a 'phone ID
Avpx

I am intrigued now, I wonder if I can make my phone work with some superglue and
latex glove. haha, maybe not, I can see a lot of explaining at the chemist as to
how I ended up like that. :-)

[Richard Robinson]

Post by Simon

Post by The Nomad

Post by Simon

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook,

a bit

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with
more assets than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint
readers now require the finger to still be attached.

Are you suggesting that the TV shows, CSI etc. have been lying to us
and you can't use a finger many days later to obtain a print?
Shocking! :-)

You can get a print for IDing a Jane/John Doe porpoises but likely
not good enough for a 'phone ID
Avpx

I am intrigued now, I wonder if I can make my phone work with some
superglue and latex glove. haha, maybe not, I can see a lot of
explaining at the chemist as to how I ended up like that. :-)

I think I remember a story from a few years ago about someone making
working fingerprints with a 3d printer. I disunforget all the details,
though.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 1 May 2024 11:07:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Richard Robinson
I think I remember a story from a few years ago about someone making
working fingerprints with a 3d printer.

That'd be a lbooyd high resolution 3D printer - might be possible
with a resin printer.

[Simon]

Post by Richard Robinson

Post by Simon

Post by The Nomad

Post by Simon

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook,

a bit

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with
more assets than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint
readers now require the finger to still be attached.

Are you suggesting that the TV shows, CSI etc. have been lying to us
and you can't use a finger many days later to obtain a print?
Shocking! :-)

You can get a print for IDing a Jane/John Doe porpoises but likely
not good enough for a 'phone ID
Avpx

I am intrigued now, I wonder if I can make my phone work with some
superglue and latex glove. haha, maybe not, I can see a lot of
explaining at the chemist as to how I ended up like that. :-)

I think I remember a story from a few years ago about someone making
working fingerprints with a 3d printer. I disunforget all the details,
though.

I imagine that would work, but only if the reader isn't checking for signs of
life.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 1 May 2024 20:44:33 -0000 (UTC)
Simon <***@eu.invalid> wrote:

[fingerprint id]

Post by Simon
I imagine that would work, but only if the reader isn't checking for signs of
life.

Don't talk to me about life </Marvin>

[maus]

Post by Richard Robinson

Post by Simon

Avpx

I am intrigued now, I wonder if I can make my phone work with some
superglue and latex glove. haha, maybe not, I can see a lot of
explaining at the chemist as to how I ended up like that. :-)

I think I remember a story from a few years ago about someone making
working fingerprints with a 3d printer. I disunforget all the details,
though.

I REMEMBER a thing that quality 3d/ordinary printers will just not do
that,

[Richard Robinson]

Post by maus

Post by Richard Robinson

Post by Simon

Avpx

I am intrigued now, I wonder if I can make my phone work with some
superglue and latex glove. haha, maybe not, I can see a lot of
explaining at the chemist as to how I ended up like that. :-)

I think I remember a story from a few years ago about someone making
working fingerprints with a 3d printer. I disunforget all the details,
though.

I REMEMBER a thing that quality 3d/ordinary printers will just not do
that,

*shrug*

[Tease'n'Seize]

Post by Simon
I am intrigued now, I wonder if I can make my phone work with some superglue and
latex glove.

These jbexed a few years ago

<https://www.haribo.com/en-gb/products/haribo/goldbears>

[Simon]

Post by Tease'n'Seize

Post by Simon
I am intrigued now, I wonder if I can make my phone work with some superglue and
latex glove.

These jbexed a few years ago
<https://www.haribo.com/en-gb/products/haribo/goldbears>

Haha, sounds like a good excuse to buy some :-)

[Sn!pe]

[...]

Post by Simon

Post by Tease'n'Seize

Post by Simon
superglue and latex glove.

Nurse! The screens!

Post by Simon

Post by Tease'n'Seize
These jbexed a few years ago
<https://www.haribo.com/en-gb/products/haribo/goldbears>

Haha, sounds like a good excuse to buy some :-)

My own thoughts exactly.

[John Williamson]

Post by Simon

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook,

a bit

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint readers
now require the finger to still be attached.

Are you suggesting that the TV shows, CSI etc. have been lying to us and you
can't use a finger many days later to obtain a print? Shocking! :-)

That is a different scenario. Prints for idebntifiaction can be obtained
many days after the finger has been detached, as long as it hasn't
decayed too much.

The clever readers used for security can work out whether the finger is
still alive (using temperature, pulse and such), so a room temperature
finger with no pulse will be rejected.

The other trick the TV shows use of making a fake fingerprint from a
print left on an item probably won't work even on a phone, depending on
how the print is sensed.

[Simon]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Simon

Post by John Williamson

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook,

a bit

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Simon

Post by D
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).

It may not happen on phones, but some of the better fingerprint readers
now require the finger to still be attached.

Are you suggesting that the TV shows, CSI etc. have been lying to us and you
can't use a finger many days later to obtain a print? Shocking! :-)

That is a different scenario. Prints for idebntifiaction can be obtained
many days after the finger has been detached, as long as it hasn't
decayed too much.
The clever readers used for security can work out whether the finger is
still alive (using temperature, pulse and such), so a room temperature
finger with no pulse will be rejected.

I am ashamed to say I did not know this, I had no idea they were that clever.

Post by John Williamson
The other trick the TV shows use of making a fake fingerprint from a
print left on an item probably won't work even on a phone, depending on
how the print is sensed.

OK well I am not going to try and test my phone, I do have face ID and Hannibal
comes to mind with that option. :-(

[Mike Spencer]

Post by John Williamson
The clever readers used for security can work out whether the finger is
still alive (using temperature, pulse and such), so a room temperature
finger with no pulse will be rejected.

Kludge pulse oximitry together with the print reader. Subject must
have O2 level consistent with life.

[Mr Guest]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by John Williamson
The clever readers used for security can work out whether the finger is
still alive (using temperature, pulse and such), so a room temperature
finger with no pulse will be rejected.

Kludge pulse oximitry together with the print reader. Subject must
have O2 level consistent with life.

What would the threshold be though? My (departed) dad had 54% oxygen
saturation when checked at hospital during a consultant visit, the (new)
doctor had his hand on the resus phone when the nurse next to him pointed out
that Dad was able to communicate and had walked probably 500 yards to the
waiting area!

[Nicholas D. Richards]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by John Williamson
The clever readers used for security can work out whether the finger is
still alive (using temperature, pulse and such), so a room temperature
finger with no pulse will be rejected.

Kludge pulse oximitry together with the print reader. Subject must
have O2 level consistent with life.

In cold weather my wife's fingers go white and very cold. She could
have problems if fingerprints are opted for on anything she uses

[Simon]

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)

Post by D

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need

privately

Post by D

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
these days in a safe environment. Brian

This is true! Most people nowadays have their ID, bank, money, wallet and
god knows what in one and the same device. If someone manages to steal it
and break into it, they control the entire life of that person.
I prefer decentralized security so I have a phone that can make phone
calls and is so "dumb" that I can leave it on a cafe table and no one will
touch it.
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

My phone has a lock, all my apps need a code, I don't go anywhere with my

phone

Post by D

Post by Simon
waving about in my hand, if I need to look something up I will find somewhere
and do it keeping an eye on what is going on.

That is good! I am however convinced, that government level actors have
good ways of breaking those locks. Non-government actor have a metal pipe
to beat the code out of you. ;)

Surely though the same pipe would extract your pin to go with your card, if they
are that serious they will get what they want.

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook, a bit
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

It deep ends, on how desperate/deranged he/she/they are. (Perm any two).
(The Perm) may have a misplaced sense of entitlement.
Being impecunious does not protect one from such treatment, in fact
there is a relationship between impecuniousness and chances of detection
which is not in the poor victim's favour.
Take over a millionaire Prime Minister's finances and you will be
detected; take over a little old pensioner's finances and you have a
chance of getting away with it.

That is both sad and true, not something I have given much thought but entirely
correct. :-(

[D]

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Simon

Post by D

Post by Brian-Gaff (bed 2)
Well, I've used apple pay, but even that sometimes needs you to try again
with your face then press the side button etc, if it fails then everyone
will hear my pass code. I think doing it all on a phone is rather a single
point of failure though. Might be good for small amounts, but I prefer a
physical card for big purchases. I don't do mobile banking either, I need
cash from time to time and its getting harder to get what you need privately
these days in a safe environment. Brian

This is true! Most people nowadays have their ID, bank, money, wallet and
god knows what in one and the same device. If someone manages to steal it
and break into it, they control the entire life of that person.
I prefer decentralized security so I have a phone that can make phone
calls and is so "dumb" that I can leave it on a cafe table and no one will
touch it.
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

My phone has a lock, all my apps need a code, I don't go anywhere with my phone
waving about in my hand, if I need to look something up I will find somewhere
and do it keeping an eye on what is going on.

That is good! I am however convinced, that government level actors have
good ways of breaking those locks. Non-government actor have a metal pipe
to beat the code out of you. ;)

Surely though the same pipe would extract your pin to go with your card, if they
are that serious they will get what they want.

True, but if I'm unconscious, they would be able to use my fingers to
unlock, or possibly (I don't know) the face. If I'm unconscious, they
cannot get the PIN.

There are also, but I don't remember the details sadly, phones where you
can have a self destruct pin, so if someone bangs you on the head, you
give them the false pin and the phone wipes itself. But these are of
course specialty phones. I don't know if there's an app for android
phones that does the same thing, maybe?

But now we're talking massive paranoia of course, so for every day use
cases I'd say that this doesn't really matter that much.

Post by Simon

Post by D
Last but not least, for the people who use face or finger to unlook, a bit
of violence goes a long way to unlock your phone. =(

If someone is going to that extreme, they would pick someone with more assets
than me and would then simply take the finger with them.

Touché!

[Simon]

On 2024-05-01, D <***@example.net> wrote:
<snip>

Post by D

Post by Simon
Surely though the same pipe would extract your pin to go with your card, if they
are that serious they will get what they want.

True, but if I'm unconscious, they would be able to use my fingers to
unlock, or possibly (I don't know) the face. If I'm unconscious, they
cannot get the PIN.
There are also, but I don't remember the details sadly, phones where you
can have a self destruct pin, so if someone bangs you on the head, you
give them the false pin and the phone wipes itself. But these are of
course specialty phones. I don't know if there's an app for android
phones that does the same thing, maybe?
But now we're talking massive paranoia of course, so for every day use
cases I'd say that this doesn't really matter that much.

No and as I said I am careful in crowds and not get glued to my phone, I hope
that is enough.

[Abandoned Trolley]

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more
of a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

[Richard Robinson]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more
of a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

2-factor authentication ? Gie 'em a phone number and they send it a text
with a magic number that you have to give the website before it'll let
you in.

Best if it's not a phone that you do mobile zbarl with.

[D]

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

[h***@ccanoemail.com]

Post by D

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

My wife's mother's maiden name = ?
Geeeeze .. this gets tough in-a-hurry !
John T.

[Nicholas D. Richards]

Post by h***@ccanoemail.com

Post by D

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

My wife's mother's maiden name = ?
Geeeeze .. this gets tough in-a-hurry !
John T.

My mother's maiden name is problematic, it was originally written in
Cyrillics so I have seen it written many ways and then when they were
naturalised they changed to another name. My grandmother's names were
patently lies, her travel documents (she was stateless) only agree on
her photograph and her place of birth. We believe that she was born
elsewhere.

My memorable information became compromised so I have to memorise what
was my schools etc, because they were not.

[Simon]

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by h***@ccanoemail.com

Post by D

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

My wife's mother's maiden name = ?
Geeeeze .. this gets tough in-a-hurry !
John T.

My mother's maiden name is problematic, it was originally written in
Cyrillics so I have seen it written many ways and then when they were
naturalised they changed to another name. My grandmother's names were
patently lies, her travel documents (she was stateless) only agree on
her photograph and her place of birth. We believe that she was born
elsewhere.
My memorable information became compromised so I have to memorise what
was my schools etc, because they were not.

I make stuff up, for general websites I make up everything, name, DOB, location,
I keep everything in a password manager and if needed I can replay the details I
gave them precisely.

Government etc. get the actual details but I have to accept that as they can
check them.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Nicholas D. Richards

Post by h***@ccanoemail.com

Post by D

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

My wife's mother's maiden name = ?
Geeeeze .. this gets tough in-a-hurry !
John T.

My mother's maiden name is problematic, it was originally written in

Aha, you've given it away. проблемный ?

Post by Nicholas D. Richards
Cyrillics so I have seen it written many ways and then when they were
naturalised they changed to another name. My grandmother's names were
patently lies, her travel documents (she was stateless) only agree on
her photograph and her place of birth. We believe that she was born
elsewhere.
My memorable information became compromised so I have to memorise what
was my schools etc, because they were not.

[Simon]

Post by h***@ccanoemail.com

Post by D

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

My wife's mother's maiden name = ?
Geeeeze .. this gets tough in-a-hurry !
John T.

It is easier for the young uns they can find all the info they need on Facebook
or Instagram. Funnily enough so can the rest of the world. :-)

[Simon]

Post by D

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be more of
a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

I just tried my bank through a VPN and it wasn't happy, required I input the
actual password instead of a fingerprint and also emailed my main account, which
is not on the phone. Overall I feel they did a good job and I am happy losing my
phone would be a hassle but not a disaster.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by D

Post by Abandoned Trolley

Post by D
I have a credit card in my wallet.
I do my banking on my computer at home with a physical second factor.
So yes, you can attack anyone of these, but it would definitely be
more of a hassle to do that than just stealing someones phone.

physical second factor ?

A box that generates codes. Kind of like the good old RSA-tokens if you
ever used those.

Nationwide and RBS and HSBC supply and use such boxes.

HSBC's is a different type from NW/RBS, not relying on debit card to work.