Discussion:
how to remember
(too old to reply)
r***@my-deja.com
2007-11-12 19:50:09 UTC
Permalink
I don't think it's me.

Our local forum has a group of sincere people talking about armistice
day: http://tinyurl.com/24y9ho . I can;t abide it.

As the shedde do know, I am a pacifist. I hugely admire the
professionalism of young people fighting for their country, and I
think we should remember those who were slaughtered in the great war.
But I don't think that we should ask them to do that. And I am
offended year on year when the best way we can find to apologise to
them is with the trappings of the deciept upon them. With guns,
flags, medals, uniforms, marching and saluting. It really upsets me.

One of the most moving war memorials I ever saw was in the welsh
marches, where on one side of the pillar were the names of all the
young men of the village who remained in France: the other three sides
named those who fought and came back alive (to some extent). Why has
the rest of the country not done this?

We should remember those who have died in the great failures of our
leaders, up to the present day. But surely not with military pomp.
We should remember them wearing sackcloth and ashes: we should parade
in shrouds, sloping not rifles but crutches or false legs. There
should not be marshall music, there should be wailing and gnashing of
teeth.

Or am I wrong about this?
Cerumen
2007-11-12 20:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@my-deja.com
I don't think it's me.
Our local forum has a group of sincere people talking about armistice
day: http://tinyurl.com/24y9ho . I can;t abide it.
As the shedde do know, I am a pacifist. I hugely admire the
professionalism of young people fighting for their country, and I
think we should remember those who were slaughtered in the great war.
But I don't think that we should ask them to do that. And I am
offended year on year when the best way we can find to apologise to
them is with the trappings of the deciept upon them. With guns,
flags, medals, uniforms, marching and saluting. It really upsets me.
One of the most moving war memorials I ever saw was in the welsh
marches, where on one side of the pillar were the names of all the
young men of the village who remained in France: the other three sides
named those who fought and came back alive (to some extent). Why has
the rest of the country not done this?
We should remember those who have died in the great failures of our
leaders, up to the present day. But surely not with military pomp.
We should remember them wearing sackcloth and ashes: we should parade
in shrouds, sloping not rifles but crutches or false legs. There
should not be marshall music, there should be wailing and gnashing of
teeth.
Or am I wrong about this?
Not sure about the details but a day of mourning rather than militiaristic
parades seems more fitting.
--
Chris, Sugar Hill, Barbados
A little learning is a dangerous thing, but it still beats total ignorance.
Countess-Palatine Blackberry the Perplexed of Divine Intervention.
2007-11-12 22:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cerumen
Not sure about the details but a day of mourning rather than militiaristic
parades seems more fitting.
I've always thought that that was exactly what Remembrance Day was. On
Rememberance Day I remember with gratitude all those who died to save me
from Hitler and I also remember all the others who didn't die, but whose
lives were completely changed by their experience, such as my father,
uncle, aunt, aunt's husband, sister's father in law, our stepfather,
grandmother's younger brother and many others.

Then there's the long list of relatives who went through WW1, including
my great grandfather ex-marine sergeant who returned from retirement to
train young men and give them a better chance of surviving.

Many, probably most of the people remembered were members of the armed
forces and proud members at that, even those who were conscripted. It
would be unreasonable to expect the armed forces and those surviving
veterans to stop their acts of remembrance in favour of wearing
hairshirts and singing "We are all guilty".

There's nothing to prevent pacifists or whoever from spending the day in
exactly the way they choose and they don't *have* to attend the services
or watch it on TV.

I rather resent the implication that one can't be peace-loving and yet
at the same time see that sometimes we have to do things we'd rather not
do until the day all humans have gained enough sense to co-operate
rather than fight

What's happened has happened and it cannot be changed. Another good way
to spend Remembrance Day is praying that all war will soon be over and
all causes of war removed.
--
e-mail me at geraldine(underlined space)ms(littlesnailything) bigfoot dot com
only without the spaces
m***@privacy.net
2007-11-13 00:52:31 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Nov,
Another good way to spend Remembrance Day is praying that all war will soon
be over and all causes of war removed.
Hear hear!
--
Braïn D [13435]
[13435]Change lycos to yahoo to reply.
®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³
2007-11-12 22:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@my-deja.com
We should remember those who have died in the great failures of our
leaders, up to the present day. But surely not with military pomp.
We should remember them wearing sackcloth and ashes: we should parade
in shrouds, sloping not rifles but crutches or false legs. There
should not be marshall music, there should be wailing and gnashing of
teeth.
If you mean martial music, I totally agree with you.,

And indeed, the implicit involvement of religion and the Almighty in
the righteousness of our cause doesn't swell me up with national
pride.
--
®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³
Countess-Palatine Blackberry the Perplexed of Divine Intervention.
2007-11-12 22:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by ®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³
And indeed, the implicit involvement of religion and the Almighty in
the righteousness of our cause doesn't swell me up with national
pride.
It's nothing to do with us, Ron, it's to do with those people who made
those sacrifices, most of whom had some kind of religious belief at that
time.

And why shouldn't those of us who still have religious belief still
involve the Almighty in their prayers for peace and thanks for
deliverance?

As I said previously, no-one is *compelled* to join in or even pretend
to share the beliefs of those who participate in these ceremonies. I
wonder if we would be able to say that today if those people *hadn't*
made sacrifices for our freedoms.
--
e-mail me at geraldine(underlined space)ms(littlesnailything) bigfoot dot com
only without the spaces
Guy King
2007-11-12 23:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³
If you mean martial music, I totally agree with you.,
Trouble is, that though I intellectually dislike the use to which the
music is being put - it still stirs a tear. It's how I was brung up and
it's hard to shed.

Despite being a devout atheist I can't hear For Those In Peril On The
Sea and a few other "proper" hymns[1] without being moved either to
tears or to sing along. It's ground in to what some would call my soul
and it's stuck.

[1] Not those foul "Happy clappy" things. No wonder church attendance is
sinking so fast among what used to be the indigenous population.
--
Skipweasel
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Richard Robinson
2007-11-13 00:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy King
[1] Not those foul "Happy clappy" things. No wonder church attendance is
sinking so fast among what used to be the indigenous population.
I answered the phone, earlier this evening. It was some pbzcnal doing a
Survey, could I spare them a few minutes ? on Attitudes To Religion. *sigh*
Oh, go on then ... 1) age, in 10-year bands ? 55-64. 2) How would I describe
myself, in terms of Religion ? As having none.

Pause. Clicketty-clicking on a keyboard. "Okay, thank you, that's the end of
the survey. We've talked to so many people in that group, we're trying to
find someone different".
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html
m***@privacy.net
2007-11-13 00:53:04 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Nov,
Post by ®óñ© © ²°¹°-°³
If you mean martial music, I totally agree with you.,
And indeed, the implicit involvement of religion and the Almighty in
the righteousness of our cause doesn't swell me up with national
pride.
Absolutely!
--
Braïn D [13435]
[13435]Change lycos to yahoo to reply.
Richard Robinson
2007-11-13 00:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@my-deja.com
One of the most moving war memorials I ever saw was in the welsh
marches, where on one side of the pillar were the names of all the
young men of the village who remained in France: the other three sides
named those who fought and came back alive (to some extent). Why has
the rest of the country not done this?
I've not seen that anywhere. It's a *good* thought.
Post by r***@my-deja.com
We should remember those who have died in the great failures of our
leaders, up to the present day. But surely not with military pomp.
We should remember them wearing sackcloth and ashes: we should parade
in shrouds, sloping not rifles but crutches or false legs. There
should not be marshall music, there should be wailing and gnashing of
teeth.
Or am I wrong about this?
I don't think so. It's an apalling remedy for the worst kind of failure.

Personally I wear a white poppy, by way of wanting to remember the civilians
too. Especially these last ... 6 years, already ? I'd have preferred to see
us honouring their memory by trying to see that it wasn't still happening.
Instead of having to be reverent after the event, let's try not being so
boodly casual about throwing them away in the first place; and never mind
their nationality.


Incidentally, a thing that's been poking at me for years ... if I mention
the Maiden Aunt with That Photo on the wall, is there a sheddi that doesn't
know the photo I mean ? Is there a family in the country ? (possibly, among
the Youth, finally ?)
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html
Sena
2007-11-13 00:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Richard Robinson said...
Post by Richard Robinson
Incidentally, a thing that's been poking at me for years ... if I mention
the Maiden Aunt with That Photo on the wall, is there a sheddi that doesn't
know the photo I mean ?
I don't think I do..
--
Fran
To email me see 'from' in headers; use your net know-how to find the
domain, and put my real name in front thereof.
Cerumen
2007-11-13 08:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Robinson
Incidentally, a thing that's been poking at me for years ... if I mention
the Maiden Aunt with That Photo on the wall, is there a sheddi that doesn't
know the photo I mean ? Is there a family in the country ? (possibly, among
the Youth, finally ?)
Well I'm hardly youth but I can think of no picture of that sort that any
relation has on the wall. My parents had a few paintings and family picture
but nothing war related and nor as far as I remember did any other
relatives.
--
Chris, Sugar Hill, Barbados
A little learning is a dangerous thing, but it still beats total ignorance.
Richard Robinson
2007-11-13 11:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cerumen
Post by Richard Robinson
Incidentally, a thing that's been poking at me for years ... if I mention
the Maiden Aunt with That Photo on the wall, is there a sheddi that
doesn't know the photo I mean ? Is there a family in the country ?
(possibly, among the Youth, finally ?)
Well I'm hardly youth but I can think of no picture of that sort that any
relation has on the wall. My parents had a few paintings and family
picture but nothing war related and nor as far as I remember did any other
relatives.
No ? I don't seem to be as right as I thought, then. I meant, of the boy in
uniform who they would have married if he'd come back.

Though, s/the country/most of Europe/.

"When the war was over, the known dead per capita of population were 1 to 28
for France, 1 to 32 for Germany, 1 to 57 for England, and 1 to 107 for
Russia". Barbara Tuchman.

sic. *snarl*. s/England/UK/, I guess.
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html
r***@my-deja.com
2007-11-13 11:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Robinson
Incidentally, a thing that's been poking at me for years ... if I mention
the Maiden Aunt with That Photo on the wall, is there a sheddi that doesn't
know the photo I mean ? Is there a family in the country ? (possibly, among
the Youth, finally ?)
He was my Grandmother's brother, named Philip. My father was born two
years after the armistice at Verdun, and named for the uncle he never
met. The Photo showed great-uncle Philip in the uniform of an
officer, a very junior officer, of the Essex. He survived in France
for a little over 24 hours.

It hung on the same hook over my Grandmother's bed until she died in
1972. My father then packed it in a family trunk, whose whereabouts
are now unknown.
Cerumen
2007-11-13 11:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@my-deja.com
Post by Richard Robinson
Incidentally, a thing that's been poking at me for years ... if I mention
the Maiden Aunt with That Photo on the wall, is there a sheddi that doesn't
know the photo I mean ? Is there a family in the country ? (possibly, among
the Youth, finally ?)
He was my Grandmother's brother, named Philip. My father was born two
years after the armistice at Verdun, and named for the uncle he never
met. The Photo showed great-uncle Philip in the uniform of an
officer, a very junior officer, of the Essex. He survived in France
for a little over 24 hours.
It hung on the same hook over my Grandmother's bed until she died in
1972. My father then packed it in a family trunk, whose whereabouts
are now unknown.
Ah right, that sort of picture; Despite having parents and an uncle in the
RAF during the last unpleasentness, the uncle as a pilot,(8) all survived
the war as did all my close or even fairly distant relatives.

(8) killed piloting a pleasure flight in a fighter jet in the last week
before retirement long after the war.
--
Chris, Sugar Hill, Barbados
A little learning is a dangerous thing, but it still beats total ignorance.
Richard Robinson
2007-11-13 12:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@my-deja.com
1972. My father then packed it in a family trunk
This would be part of a family tree ?
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html
Guy King
2007-11-13 14:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Robinson
Post by r***@my-deja.com
1972. My father then packed it in a family trunk
This would be part of a family tree ?
More likely the family elephant about which no one talked.
--
Skipweasel
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Richard Robinson
2007-11-13 14:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy King
Post by Richard Robinson
Post by r***@my-deja.com
1972. My father then packed it in a family trunk
This would be part of a family tree ?
More likely the family elephant about which no one talked.
Ah, yes. The mad elephant kept tucked away silently in the attic.

The Black Elephant of the family ?
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html
m***@privacy.net
2007-11-13 00:50:28 UTC
Permalink
On 12 Nov,
Post by r***@my-deja.com
Or am I wrong about this?
You are not wrong!
--
Braïn D [13435]
[13435]Change lycos to yahoo to reply.
Guy King
2007-11-13 08:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@privacy.net
Post by r***@my-deja.com
Or am I wrong about this?
You are not wrong!
I'm a meringue.
--
Skipweasel
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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